Cary Davis, a Managing Director at Warburg Pincus, and Garrett Hall, a Managing Director at AlpInvest Partners, speak with ally Brian Conway, Chairman of TA, about being out in private equity, how they have navigated their careers and why being authentic is a powerful business advantage.
This podcast, provided by TA Associates Management L.P., is intended to provide general information only. It does not constitute investment or professional advice, or a solicitation of any kind, and should not be taken as such. For additional information about TA, please visit www.ta.com.
Cary Davis, a Managing Director at Warburg Pincus, and Garrett Hall, a Managing Director at AlpInvest Partners, speak with ally Brian Conway, Chairman of TA, about being out in private equity, how they have navigated their careers and why being authentic is a powerful business advantage.
This podcast, provided by TA Associates Management L.P., is intended to provide general information only. It does not constitute investment or professional advice, or a solicitation of any kind, and should not be taken as such. For additional information about TA, please visit www.ta.com.
Brian Conway 00:00
Hello, and welcome to proud in PE, a limited series podcast presented by TA associates. My name is Brian Conway, I'm chairman of TA, a leading global growth private equity firm. About a year ago, one of our associates came up to me and we started a conversation. And he described for me his process of coming out. Ultimately, things worked out really well. But it was a difficult decision for him. And there were some pretty painful moments. It was during that conversation and afterwards that I realized how little I know about the experience of my colleagues are going through and how little I know about being an ally. Then I saw the numbers, I read that about a third of LGBT people feel that they have to hide who they are at work, and those numbers are likely higher in investing. So this podcast is the combination of people at TA and across the industry, who are committed to trying to make sure that future generations and employees do not have to live in fear of choosing their identity or their career. I've also wanted to learn how to be a better ally and by the way, I will almost certainly get things wrong in this conversation. But what I've learned throughout the process is what really matters is not that we get everything right. What matters is that we're empathetic that we care and that we try. Fortunately, I have two guests to help me and you on this journey. First up is a managing director at Warburg Pincus. He's focused on technology investments, principally software and fintech. He's the former executive assistant to Michael Dell at Dell computer, as well as a former McKinsey consultant. He serves as chairman of the American Academy in Rome, and as a trustee of the Andy Warhol foundation. However, I think he would say his favorite achievement is being married with two kids. Please welcome Cary Davis.
Cary Davis 01:50
Thanks, Brian. Great to be with you.
Brian Conway 01:51
Next, we have a managing director at AlpInvest partners, which is part of Carlyle investment solutions. There, he's responsible for the investment and monitoring of an over $10 billion portfolio. He's a former JP Morgan investment banker. And he currently sits on 10 GP advisory boards. He mentioned earlier, he's also a proud Tar Heel, and also a father. Please welcome, Garrett Hall.
Garrett Hall 02:14
Brian, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Brian Conway 02:17
Cary, Garrett, I think maybe we ought to start sort of like my conversation with our associate. If you could describe your process of coming out - the decision process, and then how it actually how it worked, what happened? Cary, do you want to start?
Cary Davis 02:32
I'd be happy to. So, I'll caveat this with saying that this was a long time ago, I came out to myself when I was 25. And the world was a little different then, you know, for those of you who have seen Will & Grace - and that might be a reference that's lost on on some of the more junior people listening to this podcast - in the media at that time. GLAAD was in its early days, you could see Jack, but you couldn't see Will. And so there wasn't a role model, where I could see someone like me in the media. And it was hard to believe I was gay, because I couldn't see myself in the gay images I could see. That made it hard for me to even come out to myself at the time. I came out professionally closer to 30. And it had to do with an opportunity - the firm had asked me to go open our San Francisco office. I didn't want to go. And I didn't want to go because I just started dating someone about six months before. I felt like he might well be the one, but it was too soon to ask him to move with me. And I knew if I left it would it would end. A couple of Partners asked, "Why can't you go? you don't have a family, you don't have a reason not to go." And that was the impetus for me to say, well, actually, I do have something and I haven't really told you about it. It ended up that is who I'm now married to and with whom I have two kids. And that was 23 years ago, so I think I made the right decision, even though would have been fun to have opened the San Francisco office. It was much scarier to come out than it was immediately on the other side where very few people were surprised. But nobody came up. You know, nobody wanted to say anything to me until I broke open the conversation. So it all went well. And I'm very happy that I did it.
Brian Conway 04:27
Well, that's great. I wanted I wanted to ask you, was he the one?
Cary Davis 04:31
Yes, he was.
Brian Conway 04:31
It's one of those questions. You want to know the answer before you ask the question, was he the one and he was the guy. That's great. Garrett, I want to come back. Maybe we could hear your story.
Garrett Hall 04:45
First of all, I feel like I come out every day. Right? I mean, this is the challenge and the opportunity of working in a people business where each of our roles is to meet new limited partners, meet new general partners, new company management. So if you're doing that day in day out, you're always going to be coming out to someone new, because we live in a world where the going in assumption is, you have a wife. And it used to be really hard conversation because I knew it was going to be awkward and uncomfortable. But I'll tell you, as I've seasoned, and I've become more comfortable in myself, and as the world has changed to some degree, as well. Now, I very much look forward to that question, because it is an opportunity for me to introduce myself in a real way, there's something authentic, that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. I'll tell you that more often than not creates a connection with that person that I wouldn't have had if I had talked about baseball, or golf, or, you know, the weather or whatever the question, you know, the other things that people talk about at conferences. And so, you know, for me, now, it's a real competitive advantage. You know, I'm different than other people out there, because I have something to share that is a little bit different than most people in the room. I think today, I love coming out. But I recognize it was definitely harder when I was younger in my career. But as I've gotten more comfortable with myself, and the world's gotten more comfortable with the LGBTQ community, I think it's become a little bit different. Now, specifically, when I was interviewing at JP Morgan, and this is a good anecdote, because it'll tie together. I was interviewing for JP Morgan, and I wasn't planning on coming out, but I was very active on campus and the LGBT group, and I had that on my resume. But in a subtle way that like, you don't really pick up if you don't know to code language. My interviewer did not know the code language, so he said, "Well, you got a bunch of letters down here? I don't know what any of them mean, what does this mean?" So I described that I was a senior leader, and we had done a lot of advocacy on campus. And, you know, there was this moment of pause, that we sort of looked at each other. And he said, "Well, that's really amazing, my brother is gay. And I'm so amazed to hear that this is what's on campus today." It just opened up a relationship with my interviewer at JP Morgan that I never would have had in the 30 minutes where we're talking about, you know, depreciation. That was a really good example - we sometimes worry about the worst, and we sometimes don't give people credit where we could. But when we do, and we trust, and we're authentic, at least in my experience, more often than not, we have positive outcomes. So, coming out, it's really hard if you don't know who you are. It does take time. And we should all honor the fact that not everyone's ready, when they're 21, or 25, or 30, or whatever age. You do have to find yourself and have a center of gravity. It's one of the words that we use internally, to be able to do some of these things. But once you have that, and you acknowledge that it's going to be scary, but also that the other person is going to be uncomfortable too. Brian, you and I were talking earlier, you know, a lot of straight allies are really worried about saying the wrong thing, right. And anytime I come out, I know oftentimes that the person on the other side of the table is scared about saying the wrong thing. I think that's just sort of a beautiful opportunity for education, and to open the door and to share something about me and help that other person in a way that I might not be able to, if I'm more junior or younger, come from a different place. I want to honor the fact that these things are challenging, and they're hard, and they're uncomfortable, but I'll tell you, a lot of the really rewarding things I've done in my career have been challenging and difficult and uncomfortable, but pushing yourself is what can accelerate your career, generate good returns for your investors and develop authentic relationships. So finding your comfort level to do those things is really important.
Brian Conway 11:16
I want to come back to this idea of allies, or just colleagues, feeling uncomfortable or embarrassed or not. I want to come back to that later. I'd love to get from you guys some concrete advice for the people on the call who are trying to be good allies, what can they do? What mistakes can they avoid? What positive things can they do? Maybe we can pick up on something else you said - can you both describe when it was challenging? Because the way you just described it sounds, it sounds it was a big relief. It was good for your career, you've developed more authentic relationships as a result of it. It just sounds wonderful. But there must have been some challenging moments, right? That you guys have had. And I wonder if you could share some of those stories as a way of sort of validating experiences others on the podcast might have had?
Garrett Hall 12:07
Well, maybe I'll go first and then pass the baton to Cary. But I think, you know, when I graduated from business school, I went to Harvard Business School and I was thinking about where I wanted to work after that.
Brian Conway 12:18
Garrett, you know, you could have just said, I went to I went to business school in Cambridge.
Garrett Hall 12:30
You know, I decided, again, to do that false modesty. We're going back to the authenticity right back to authenticity. But in either case, I interviewed at a ton of firms. And whether it's TA or Warburg or Carlyle/AlpInvest, we have the great privilege of working at big institutional firms that have been around for a while, and we're really intentional about their human capital, not everywhere is like that. There were definitely some middle market buyout firms that I interviewed at, where the connection was not the same where that intentionality wasn't there. And I looked at the partner group, and I said, you know, no one looks and feels like me, not just that they weren't LGBT, but they just weren't. They were different in a whole host of ways, and that we were not going to be partners and building a business and building my career. Very rarely was it someone who was anti-LGBT, but it was oftentimes people who just weren't, I don't know what the right word is. Maybe weren't, weren't as inclined when this hit weren't, weren't as invested in sort of the human capital thrust that I think is driving our economy today. This replaces that didn't work out. And honestly, I'm sure at the time, my feelings were hurt. But it also sometimes can be a good outcome, right? It's better I knew that going into a job than coming out of it three or four years later, I think you got to be prepared to have some of those - to have the upsides you got to be prepared to have the downsides, and know that they're not going to be fun.
Brian Conway 13:49
Cary, do you have any particularly challenging experiences, any stories that might be helpful for people listening?
Cary Davis 13:56
I think the challenging story for me and Brian, this gets to something I think we'll talk about later, is how being a good ally relates to mentorship. And if you're a little different, how do you seek out and have those peer and superior relationships, if they're doing things that aren't the things that you want to do? Or that you're not good at going to play golf or going to watch a sporting event? Those just aren't things that I choose to do? And if that is the lion's share of the networking and socializing that happens, right? How do you find a path through that and be an integral part of what's happening and have those same opportunities? And so I think we'll talk about how to potentially fix that that later.
Brian Conway 14:43
Why don't we get into that? How did you do that? And maybe what is Warburg done to facilitate that?
Cary Davis 14:49
You know, I sought out other ways of being with the people that I thought would be important to me. Whether it was asking them to lunch or going to a show or doing something that I was interested in where there was some crossover of interest. And I did at various points feel bad that I wasn't included, it felt bad that I didn't have the same set of opportunities as other people did, I could see it happening around me. And it was hard to figure out what to do about it, so I tried to pick a few people that I wanted to have relationships with and find some other way to get some of that social time with them. So at work, what we're doing is trying to be more purposeful and conscientious about the mentorship. That happens in the firm, and making sure that people who seem a little different from the mainstream, whether it be LGBT or on other dimensions, have that outreach from more senior people and have people create those opportunities. And like, I think it's wrong to tell people you can't go golf, right. But what we should do is make sure that there's also other inclusive opportunities for people to socialize with each other. I would hate to have people feel like, well, the LGBT people or the gay people spoke up, and therefore the you know, golf got stricken from the, from the record of what we can go do, right? I think the phrase is called people lead and don't call people out, right? Don't tell them you can't go do these things. But how do we add to the repertoire of what happens in a way that you have more opportunities for more people to be included?
Brian Conway 16:26
You know, I was thinking about your stories. So what advice would you give to younger colleagues now about some of the things we've been talking about, about the decision to come out at work? Even the decision, Garrett, going back to business school, Harvard or otherwise? How to choose an organization at which to work? I mean, maybe advice that you would have given yourself, anything you would do differently?
Cary Davis 16:48
Well, I say, I think the biggest piece of advice - I know, it's easy to say on the other side, and we've talked about it a bunch of times - but bring your whole self to the office. It may seem scary, but you can start slow. You know, we're fortunate that we're in an industry, that generally is a meritocracy. And you know, people have different political beliefs. But I've met a lot of people in this industry over the years, and there are very few people where I would say, well, if they knew that somebody who worked for them was gay, that that would be an issue, or would impede their ability to be advanced or succeed. And in fact, I think much more so the opposite, that if you aren't bringing your whole self, people will think there's something off. That will make it harder for you to succeed. And that if you do end up in a place that I haven't found where being gay would be an issue in this industry, the sooner you learn that the better, and put yourself on a career path somewhere else, rather than being paranoid about being found out. I was in that position for many years - it's really uncomfortable and not fun.
Garrett Hall 17:56
Totally agree with Cary, the other piece of advice I had, and I always tell people, is that there were few of us when Cary started and there were few when I started in the business. Today, there's actually a pretty large LGBT community in private equity. I mean, I keep my spreadsheet, there's 150 names on my spreadsheet. And what I found is that people really do want to meet and support others who are just starting. This is how I've met tons of people and met tons of mentees and found my own mentors. So I really encourage people to work to find each other, and have some of those one-on-one relationships and take advice. And there have been so many times in my career where I've been able to call a mentor, and talk about an investment issue or a team issue or a compensation issue. And it's so helpful to have the sounding boards to be successful over the long term. And you gotta if you're in this business, the long term is where the real fun is - real wealth creation, value creation, the real impact opportunity is. If you want to be successful long term, you got to develop those relationships. So I always encourage people to find those folks. And then to pay it forward and provide that for others. I have a little rule within my mentee group, all my mentees, I make sure that they have mentees, you got to create these groups of folks that want to help each other. Because I think that's how we help. Well, first of all, that's how you get to scale and that's how we also scale our impact in the industry. I was probably a little slow to do that coming out of the gates. And now it's an important part of my career and sort of the advice I offer to people and it also speaks to where Cary started, it answers that question sooner rather than later around what places can I be successful? Because when you're putting not just your mind to it, not just the interview process to it, but you can call around. This is a people business. It's not a huge world. With a few phone calls, we can figure out whether a firm is going to be a supportive, inclusive place or whether it's not and again, it's better to know that sooner rather than later.
Brian Conway 19:51
Both of you found that it's a competitive advantage for your firm, recruiting wise, that you're known as a place that's not just "for LGBT People" but as a place that is forward thinking, that's more inclusive, more welcoming.
Cary Davis 20:12
Yes, absolutely. To the young professionals, to the young recruits now, you know, they all figure, well, words are one thing. But I think the most important thing - and it's a bit of a catch 22 - is being able to see someone in senior leadership positions who looks like you, somehow or another. It speaks more than any pronouncement. And I think that's true for most categories of diversity that we're bringing. We're fortunate that I'm 27 years in, a long standing partner, and that speaks volumes about the opportunity set for somebody who's gay to succeed at Warburg. I think for other firms, it's a great start to talk about that fact publicly that people are scared to have the conversation we were having about asking or breaking the ice or saying we matter. I think it's easy as an ally, to assume that people believe that it wouldn't matter to you, but it's really scary to ask that question. So to make explicit what many people believe, implicitly, and I think almost everybody in this industry believes implicitly that it doesn't matter. But going out and saying that, I think will make your firm much more attractive to some people who are considering where they're going to go.
Brian Conway 21:19
You know, I was having a conversation to prep for this podcast, with two of my partners who were straight. And one of them said, I just think of people as people, I don't see them as gay or straight. And I wonder if you two could react to that, because I had a reaction I'll share with you after you guys go.
Garrett Hall 21:38
Yeah, I think it's a reaction we get a lot and honestly, you know, I take it as a good sign because people want to be meritocratic. I think that's because we live in meritocratic industry. Where we work in private equity, the definition of capitalism, there's a gravity to it. But what it doesn't fully honor is that the playing field isn't actually totally fair. And people all have lived different experiences to get to where they are - some are just a lot harder than others. If you think about people of color, broadly, you know, the socioeconomic differences are very real. If you think about women in finance, that sort of experience - mentorship, role models - is very different, historically. Similar for LGBTQ, just a little bit different. So I think you have to acknowledge that it just has been harder, and it will be harder for some folks. And it's not because they're not as good. It's not because they went to different universities, it's just the way the world has grown up, right? You know, we're all growing up here. And so acknowledging that difference, and that "wow, that must have been much harder for this person." Or maybe this person does deserve more support, you know, like, I had one associate who had never gotten a piece of feedback in their life, because people were too afraid to give that person feedback, because they said, "I'm going to say the wrong thing." And I'll tell you, when I gave him feedback, and it was tough feedback. He was such a gift. He said, "No one has ever given this, I want to be good at my job. I want to be have a successful private equity career. But there's no way to do that, unless people can speak to me candidly." I love when people want to come to the table and say, you know, I see everyone has an equal. But we also as part of that have to acknowledge that there have been a lot of differences in the way that society handles those different people.
Cary Davis 23:22
I sort of parse it into two buckets. I think of myself as a husband and father first and investor, second, and gay third, I don't start with, I'm gay, and then all these other things. I want to be treated just like everyone else. On the one hand, I'm not looking for special treatment. But if you want to have, and this is true for gay employees and employees of other minorities, if you want to have people who are diverse, to Garrett's point, its about some of the larger obstacles they have had to face to succeed. The mentorship and the hiring are two of them, that if you don't put that in place, you won't end up with partners who are diverse, you'll end up with a monoculture at the top. On the one hand, I want to be treated like everyone else. On the other hand, I think you have to be more intentional to succeed and having a diverse senior workforce.
Garrett Hall 24:18
One of the things we talk a lot about internally is that there's a real business case to be made - the research is quite strong - that different profiles of people with different experiences lead to better decisions, that's investment decisions, that's fair management decisions. You're bringing more to the table because people approach problems differently. In fact, actually, you should be perceiving people's differences, right? Like that's the right way to build a team. If you're thinking whether it's a company management team or general partner, you want there to be complementary skill sets, not overlapping skill sets. And so I think actually perceiving those differences is important. And I always say like, listen, I've loved my career. I think private equity is a really interesting place to work and it happens to be one of the most lucrative professions in the world. But if you look at the leadership of it, there's no diversity. So you know, people always worry about lowering the bar when we have these recruiting chats. And I'm like, guys is not lowering the bar is that clearly the bar has not been set equally? Because there's no way in one of the most lucrative, one of the most interesting jobs in the world, everyone looks the same. That's just not logical. And so you appeal appeal a little bit to that logic.
Cary Davis 25:24
Garrett, in your spreadsheet of 150 people, of course very PE of you to have spreadsheet, how many are partners?
Garrett Hall 25:31
Uh, somewhere less than 20?
Cary Davis 25:35
Yeah, because I know, I think all the out partners in the private equity industry, you know, they could fit on two hands, the ones who are investing partners. And I think it looks very different in the more junior ranks. I think there are a lot of people which, you know, could come up to senior positions. But you know, when I joined Warburg 27 years ago, this was just not a career that people who were gay chose. They couldn't see themselves in it, they couldn't even see themselves in business as much. It was just a different time.
Brian Conway 26:07
So the optimistic way of thinking about that is that you represent what the industry looked like 25 years ago? And that this big cohort of people who are more junior represent the future? That things are changing, it just takes time.
Cary Davis 26:22
Yeah. And it's not just Private Equity, it's Harvard Business School too, as an example, right? When I was there, there were a few of us who were gay in my class. Today, it's 10s, if not 30 people in the class that identifies as gay, so right, more broadly, that is society changing.
Garrett Hall 26:38
It's definitely more than time, though. I don't want to make it sound too easy. You know, there's an intentionality that places like Carlyle, Warburg, TA have to put against it. And then also, you know, I would say, top down and grassroots, right. Like we need senior leadership to think this is important. And then we need folks who want to be successful in this career and think it's fun and interesting, right? No one's going to be successful in this career if they don't think it's fun, interesting. There's a competency match. So there's more work to be done. I sort of joke in Carlyle, I think something over 50% of AUM is managed by women. I think we have more in the partner level, LGBT folks than any other firm, which I always like to say, because it's unverifiable. But I'm pretty sure it's the case. But, you know, those things come together, right. And we've been talking about LGBT, folks. But really, I think about it broadly in a DEI lens because I view myself as an ally to people of color, and women at the firm, hopefully. I know it's the case that they view the LGBT population similar. We've driven a lot of grassroots initiatives internally, as partners. We talked a lot about differences, and there are a lot of differences. But sometimes just being different can be a similarity. And we can work together to continue to drive more diversity of thought, diversity of profile in private equity than there has been historically.
Brian Conway 27:58
Maybe on this idea, though, of advice. I want to reinforce this idea that people like me, who are trying to be allies, have no idea what to say, what to do. They're used to being self confident, and informed and to be right, so to speak. What advice would you give to them? You know, because one of our associates told me a story, where one of the other people that TA was asking, same as you were just saying Cary, was saying something about, you know, hey, this would be a great place to meet women or whatever. And he said, "Well, actually, I'm not interested in that." And the other person at TA got all flustered and embarrassed and, and just started blabbering. You know, and I think that's the normal response, that people don't know what to say. So they just start talking, and they say things. What advice could you guys give from your experience of the people on the other side, to the people who are their colleagues or other people at the firm or outside of the firm?
Cary Davis 28:57
Garrett alluded to this earlier in the conversation - speak from the heart. It's easy to tell when somebody means well, and when somebody means ill. Don't worry about what the words are, we're not going to get offended by the wrong word, we'll get offended if you won't talk to us.
Brian Conway 29:12
Right. That is what most people do. I don't want to make a mistake, so I just avoid the conversation.
Cary Davis 29:19
That's so much worse than saying something that's wrong. But it's easy to tell in a conversation if somebody means well by what they're trying to say. And, you know, we're not going to get offended. If somebody's means well, regardless of how they say it or what they say or what they ask. I'd rather if you're wondering something, that you ask me a question. If I don't want to answer, I'll tell them I don't want to answer that question. But I'm not gonna get offended because you asked me a question.
Brian Conway 29:43
Right, Garrett, anything to add to that?
Garrett Hall 29:48
I like to acknowledge that we've created an alphabet soup and it's not easy and "this isn't this" is not, you know, a huge population in the grander, grander scheme of things. I like to take some graciousness to the conversation. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about these issues, I've spent a lot of time coming out. And then I'm springing this on this person, and then I'm in a meeting or in a conference, and like they've got two seconds to respond, right. So, I'd like to give the room to make mistakes and view it as an opportunity, right? This is an educational opportunity for them. It's an opportunity for me to develop this authentic relationship we talked about earlier, and I welcome questions. Like Cary said, if any are inappropriate and I'll tell you which ones and I'll tell you why. Like, it's not a big deal.
Brian Conway 30:34
Don't you get tired of being like, the gay guy? That we're gonna go ask the gay guy all these questions?
Cary Davis 30:40
No.
Brian Conway 30:41
No?
Cary Davis 30:42
It's fine.
Brian Conway 30:43
Not at all?
Garrett Hall 30:43
Why? You get to be special? No, you know, I want to just make a little side point. I don't get tired of being the gay guy. But I know my friends who are the only woman in the room or the only black guy in the room, I know it's harder for them. And especially if they're LGBT, and the only woman there, and LGBT and the only black guy in the room is there, then they're just so different. And they feel like, they end up spending more of their career time dealing with the differences than they deal with making money or generating returns or advancing their career. So I do think we need to be cognizant of that. Certainly, that it's harder for some than others, and intersectionality is a real thing. But second, also, that we don't want to tokenize people, right? If the firm came to me and only me to ask all questions LGBTQ, then the firm's not doing something right - because they need some more LGBTQ people. And, by the way, we all have Google. And so Google, you know, like, put a little intentionality to it.
Brian Conway 31:39
We're sort of talking about things people should do, Are there things they shouldn't do? Or mistakes your colleagues have made, or missed opportunities you think the firms have?
Cary Davis 31:47
I think I would actually add, there are a couple other things that they should do. Or I think one thing you shouldn't do is, is ask somebody if they're gay, right? Like if they haven't let them come out to you, don't put somebody on the spot. And, you know, that's one of the reasons why so many of my partners knew I was gay before I came out, but nobody came to talk to me about it. I think it was the right thing. Because if you know, somebody will tell you when they're ready, and they'll make it known when they're ready. As Garrett said, we come out every day, once you're ready to be out, but you need to be comfortable with yourself. I'd also say one thing as an ally that you can do is help. If you're in a meeting or a group setting, and somebody asks a question of somebody who you think might be gay, but might not be out, you know, help cover the gap. They might get asked an awkward question like, should we go out to try and find some girls tonight? And, you know, jump in and change the subject. Don't make them answer an awkward question. Help them with a gap. If you say something in a meeting that you regret afterwards, don't just keep playing it in your head, go talk to the person and say, you know, I realized afterwards that I might not have said what I should have said, please help me with what I can say better next time.
Garrett Hall 32:52
I think it's also trying to remind people this it's not a short game. It's a long game. Right? So this is not just about Pride Month, this is not just about putting a sticker on your door. This is around, you know, long term advocacy, right? So we look for people to attend pride events, but also, you know, sometimes uses in compensation conversations, when we're looking at our team, we look at the metrics across different demographics. And if there's outliers, we say, well, why are there outliers? Let's try and understand. And allies should be asking the same questions, whether it's for the LGBT community or for women or for people of color, you can look at the data and look at some of the numbers and and make sure that you are being fair, right? Like we all have implicit bias. Again, there's big research, there's a large amount of research that supports us, it's not about that thing or a negative thing. It's just a thing. And we have numbers and data to help us address that. And so if you want to be an outlier, you should be looking at your compensation numbers and saying, "Are we treating everyone fairly? At different levels? Are there outliers? And why are there outliers?" Sort of acknowledging that there's a long game, there's a lot of different things you can do. You're allowed to make some mistakes, but it's about intentionality and wanting to drive - I always say DEI, broadly, not just for one specific community. I think it's thinking about it as a broader umbrella, and what am I doing to make sure that my team is more diverse, that we make better decisions and that we're generating better returns for our investors and you know, retaining the best human capital we can?
Brian Conway 34:38
Garret, what's AlpInvest or Carlyle, doing more institutionally? Recruiting, training, other initiatives?
Garrett Hall 34:44
Couple different umbrellas. So first, we scored 100% on the Human Rights Campaign, Corporate Equality Index, which really is just making sure that your benefits, the way that you institutionalize your firm, support the LGBT community. They're listed, they take some work to do, but it's it's all fair and doable. I think we were one of the first alternative asset managers to do it. Now there's a group. And I encourage everyone from the middle market to large cap to the venture world to sort of start that as a baseline. So I think there's sort of a benefit. First of all, it's about fairness. And second of all, it's about signaling that you care enough. And you've been putting enough intention against it, to achieve this baseline that I think others within recruiting need - to intentionally make sure that the slates of candidates that your executive firms bring you, or that your recruiters bring, are diverse. That's not just diverse across one or two dimensions, but broadly. And then track over time the advancement of those different populations and sort of see, right - again, we're in a data business - so let's use the data to understand these things. See if you're doing a good job. If you're not doing a good job, try to identify the bottlenecks or the issues, and then try and solve them, right? We're all about going through brick walls where we need to. So I think recruiting is definitely some of that process element and then also signaling. We are supportive and have been a sponsor of Out for Undergrad for many years, an organization I've been involved with for a long, long time and care deeply about. We're Out Investors, which is another neat nonprofit that brings together LGBTQ investors. There are ways that you can sort of get your name out there and signal to people that you're an inclusive firm. You got to do it. Like all things in private equity, they only get harder over time, because it gets more competitive over time. I encourage everyone just sort of, sometimes you just gotta get out of your office and go do things. Otherwise, you're gonna fall behind, right?
Brian Conway 36:00
I think of you guys as senior leaders in the industry, but if you could talk more broadly to senior leaders in private equity, what would you advise them to do? What would you say, gee, if you're not doing this, you ought to be really seriously considered doing it? What would your advice be?
Cary Davis 36:57
I think it's a lot of the things that we've talked about already. I think it's be intentional about the way you make people feel included. And don't just assume that because you have good intention that other people understand that's the case. Make explicit what's implicit in what you believe, focus on mentorship, and allyship in your organization, and focus on recruiting, to have the opportunity to attract a diverse workforce. As Garrett said, there's lots of studies that show how diversity improves performance, especially in investing where diversity of ideas is the most important driver of returns. So it's not just the right thing to do. It's also remunerative to have to have a breadth of different experience bases in the firm. Yes, it's enlightened capitalism to have diversity in your workforce.
Garrett Hall 36:59
I agree with what Cary said, and I would only say, we understand that it's hard and it takes effort and intentionality. But I really think, listen, everyone in private equity wants to win, right? That's why we're here. It's a type A personality business. And to win, this is what you need to do, and you need to put resources against it, put process against it. And firms that have done it have done that quite successfully. Sometimes I feel like there's a little bit of a shame of where we've been, so people don't want to rock the boat. But the boats been rocked. The larger institutional firms are leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of different mid market firms. And there's going to be a bifurcation within everyone else who can figure this stuff out and who doesn't. The folks that don't, they're going to lose the talent, or they lose the LP, they're going to lose the returns or they're not going to connect with portfolio because, you know, more diverse founders and management teams don't want to work with them. I think this is just table stakes now. And so you know, I think there's a little bit of a hesitation to jump all in. But I think to be successful here, sometimes you just have to jump in both feet and it's okay to make mistakes. But it's all part of the process of making your firm a better place.
Cary Davis 39:02
So Brian, it sounds like you've been on a bit of a journey yourself from starting with a junior member of your team coming to you and opening your eyes to this question. I'm curious to hear a little bit about what you've learned as you've gone through both talking to your colleagues internally and from these discussions? And how you think about all this?
Brian Conway 39:21
Thanks, Cary. Actually, I have to admit, I was just ignorant. And really, first of all, I've loved this conversation. I really liked it. Garrett, you kept bringing it all back to diversity of all kinds. And I really like so many things that you said, Cary too. Like, making explicit what's implicit, and somebody like me, who could be very well meaning, it's just basically going about his day. And I guess I would bring it back to this idea of being honest and being authentic. We're in the risk business, taking some risk. You guys took enormous risk, or what you perceive to be enormous risk, and it really paid off. For me, the one message I'd want to pass along to people who are just like me, who don't happen to be gay, and are maybe feeling uncomfortable or awkward or want to get the right answer. Just lead, as you said, with caring. Start the conversation and your colleagues will really appreciate it, and you'll be a better firm because of it. Right? And at the end of the day, it's all about relationships. That's one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of complete work from home, because it's all about relationships, and it's about, you know, grabbing a sandwich with somebody and learning more about them, personally. Of course, you know, I scribbled down benefits, I'm like, immediately going to leave and make sure that we got the right benefits. And there's a bunch of tactical things, but the really important thing, is the point that I think both of you are making. I, also, really appreciate your patience, you know, and your graciousness - to use your word Garrett - with somebody like me, who's just learning. I think it's a good way to sort of close off the conversation. I want to thank both you guys.
Cary Davis 41:06
Thanks for having me, Brian.
Garrett Hall 41:08
Brian, thanks so much for having me.
Brian Conway 41:09
And I guess I'd also thank our listeners. Thanks for joining us on the inaugural episode of PROUD IN PE and stay tuned because there will be an episode two coming soon. Stay tuned. Thank you.